Teaching Tax Flow: The Podcast

0:00:04 John Tripolsky: Welcome to the Teaching Tax Flow podcast, where the goal is to empower and.

0:00:08 Intro: Educate you to legally and ethically minimize.

0:00:11 Intro: Taxes paid over your lifetime.

0:00:16 John Tripolsky: Welcome back to the podcast, everybody. Today at episode 70, we are going to answer the question of when do I need life insurance? So before we get to it, let’s take a brief moment, as always, and thank today’s sponsor on this episode.

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0:01:21 John Tripolsky: Hey all, and welcome back to teaching tax Flow of the podcast today. As you heard in the intro, read in the show description and seen in the title, we’re going to talk about when you may need insurance. So best guy I could think about for this one, we’re bringing on board Nate Hamill from integrated investment group IIG as we refer to it. So, Nate, welcome to the party, man. How’s it going? Let’s talk insurance.

0:01:45 Nate Hamil: Hey, John, good to be back. It’s been months, but thanks for having me. I’d love to talk about insurance. It’s one of those conversations that people don’t like to have, but I think they need to have.

0:01:54 Nate Hamil: And we’re going to talk about insurance in a different world of auto insurance, pet insurance. We’re talking about it a little bit differently. Right? So let’s lay that out. Is that correct? Yep.

0:02:07 John Tripolsky: We’re diving into life insurance. Life insurance is essentially an insurance policy on your life. Simply put, John, if I buy a million dollar policy on me and I pass away, my family gets a million dollars, or my me, you know, obviously.

0:02:23 Nate Hamil: Spending a lot of time online being a marketing guy, we get hammered with ads. I don’t watch cable, honestly. But if you do watch cable tv, I’m sure there’s ads and everything on there as well. Like buy into this, buy into that. This is here, this is cost this much, it costs this much, this is what you get. So there’s a lot of thought, and I give the marketers and advertising people in this world a lot of credit.

0:02:45 Nate Hamil: They put a lot into this to make it very catchy but we’re going to basically look at this. I don’t think I ever use the word holistically in a sense, but maybe that’s the right one here, but kind of the bigger picture, right?

0:02:56 Nate Hamil: Comprehensively.

0:02:58 John Tripolsky: There you go. So we’re not going to get into every nook and cranny detail this, because I’m sure you, being the expert, can talk for days and days on this, but let’s actually take one step back so those that aren’t familiar with yourself and IIG, maybe can you give us just a little elevator pitch, if you will, on what you guys do over at integrated investment group? Yeah.

0:03:19 Nate Hamil: So, integrated investment group is the planning arm of our CPA firm. Chris is my business partner, who you guys have on there, and fortunately, unfortunately, get to hear week to week. But we handle the retirement, the investing, the insurance, the core side of the, hey, I’ve done my taxes, but now I have to plan for the future. So a little background. I’ve been in the industry about a decade. I’m up in South Bend, Indiana, married, four kids.

0:03:52 Nate Hamil: This is my passion, is helping people achieve their goals and really just making.

0:03:57 John Tripolsky: Sense of what people may have no idea what they’re getting into. So let’s start off now as we take this journey, as we can say, into the wonderful world of life insurance, and not forgetting about the question of when may I need this. So let’s start off with really just give us, again, without going into a massive amount of detail, maybe just the types of products that are out there. People probably know, oh, well, policy. Everything’s policy. Policy, I think, is the term that marketers use for this. So give us the 30,000 foot view, maybe the 29,000 foot view on really what’s out there. So what options people may have.

0:04:35 Nate Hamil: Yeah, so let’s start simple. Term. Life insurance is exactly what it sounds like. It is a life insurance policy that lasts for a term.

0:04:44 Nate Hamil: That term can be dictated by the insurance company. You can go out and shop that term and they’ll price it accordingly. So term is great for I will often say, and I’m not putting blanket recommendations out there, please, John, if our listeners hear nothing else, let them hear that. Speaking to a professional about this is very important, but having an understanding of it before you go into that meeting so that you best understand how to have conversations is also important.

0:05:13 Nate Hamil: Term, in my opinion, is great for young, newly insurable interest. Just not a ton of capital, not a ton of flow, but recognize the responsibility. So I like to use myself as an example, that was 22 year old newlywed Nate, who bought a cheap $250,000 term policy just to make sure that his new wife was not emotionally and financially devastated if something were to happen.

0:05:44 John Tripolsky: And then really with the term, before we get too much into detail on that, but it really sounds like, again, not making the assumption that somebody would fit into this bucket, but generally speaking, it sounds to me like term would be kind of a starting off point. If you’re not really sure where to get into, maybe whoever you speak to maybe directs you in that direction. And would it be safe to say that a term policy is more flexible in a sense, on kind of letting you build your own policy?

0:06:13 John Tripolsky: Or are we going to get into.

0:06:14 Nate Hamil: That in further ones? We’ll get into that term is where we actually see the least amount of flexibility. We see flexibility in the length of the term. So we might be able to get a ten year, a 20 year, 30 year, or a term to age 80 or 100, but we don’t get to affect any of the premium going into that, the insurance company simply says, hey, here’s what it costs. And I always equate term insurance to renting your insurance. For some people, it’s the right thing to do for their entire life because it’s the cheapest way to get it.

0:06:46 Nate Hamil: But if I have a ten year term and I die on the day after the policy expires, the insurance company keeps my premium and I don’t have a death benefit. Now, caveat to that. There are return of premium policies. You can pay your policy, and as long as you pay it through the entire duration, they give you a premium back at the end. So those do exist. Like you said, john, without going too in the weeds, we’re talking term in general. It exists for a period of time. The prices are usually the lowest way to get excellent, excellent.

0:07:19 John Tripolsky: And then really moving forward, what might be the other common types of policies.

0:07:24 Nate Hamil: That someone would be looking at? So let’s go to the other end of the spectrum. And I know there are emotions around this product and opinions. I have my own, but that would be the whole life side. Whole life. First and foremost, it’s still an insurance product. We have to have a need a death benefit, but what whole life allows us to do is put money into that policy. A, to pay the premiums, and b, to allow it to grow.

0:07:52 Nate Hamil: Now, how it grows is dependent upon how the policy is structured. You could have those additional premiums put into the life insurance company’s general account. You can have them put into the market. It’s really up to you and your advisor. This is typically a good tool for people who want to maximize some tax efficiencies in the future estate planning, because the other name for whole life insurance, John, is permanent life insurance.

0:08:18 Nate Hamil: You own it. You may only pay premiums to age 65, but that death benefit continues forever.

0:08:25 John Tripolsky: There’s a term that I’ve heard bounce around and again, to kind of throw that disclaimer out there, right. Everybody’s situation is different, so nothing worth saying. There’s no cookie cutter or easy bake oven for those 80s babies out there that if you had a sister, you probably got burned by the darn thing. So again, there’s no fit for this. So there’s no mold. So that term infinite banking has come up a decent amount. So I don’t know if we can really dive into this a whole lot, but I’m going to make the assumption here that that is completely separate from a term policy and that then and there falls into that whole or permanent life policy. Correct?

0:09:07 Nate Hamil: Bingo. Yeah. Using a whole life policy to create capital, whether it be for loans, whether it be for financing future purchases, things like that. It’s a tool that fits in there really well. Really well. Again, you’ve got to talk to your advisor. Timeline, liquidity, risk, all of those things matter, plus insurable interest, making sure that you have a need for insurance. But then you’re absolutely right, John. There are ways that you can stuff money inside a whole life insurance policy, and there are governmental guidelines, but that actually get it to spit out cash. Now, the key is you have to try to get the base premium, what you’re paying for the insurance, as low as possible so that you have as much room to stuff cash in it to grow again. So it’s not ideal for that 25 year old client who just got started.

0:10:00 John Tripolsky: Right. Exactly. And honestly, so I kind of put the card a little bit before the horse, too, even. I mean, I asked that question. Probably a lot of people probably don’t know what this is, and obviously, it relates a lot. I hear it a lot in the real estate investment world. So those reis out there, a lot of them take advantage of this. So if you can, we still got a decent amount of time left on this show. And again, not to go into the weeds specifically on this, but give us your perspective and really definition and maybe walk us through, say, somebody who’s heard this term, super intrigued with it.

0:10:29 John Tripolsky: They probably fit more into the whole life of that permanent policy criteria. So
they’re checking those boxes so give us a little discussion or a little background on what exactly that infinite banking term is. I know that’s kind of a trendy term popping around.

0:10:46 Nate Hamil: Yeah. So simply put, it’s maximizing contributions and premiums inside a whole life policy to get it to produce as much cash on cash return as possible. Now, I’m not going to give rates, I’m not going to go into any of that. Essentially, when structured well, the insurance advisors, the salesperson’s commission is decreased because honestly, we get paid on base premium. It’s getting the client to put the additional aps or the additional premiums in that make it sing.

0:11:18 Nate Hamil: And what happens is then in the future, that policy every year kicks out a dividend. And that dividend can be used. A, you can receive it in cash, b, you can use it to pay your premiums, or c, you can use it to purchase additional insurance. Well, if you purchase more insurance the next year the dividend is slightly bigger and you buy more insurance. So what happens is over time that insurance amount grows, producing bigger dividends.

0:11:45 Nate Hamil: You can access that money in the cash account, some will call it the cash value account, effectively the cash account. You can access that money either a, via a loan, b, as just a withdrawal and a termination of additional premiums, or c, you can terminate part of the policy. Where it gets really fun is depending on the companies that you use and the dividend rates, you can effectively become your own bank.

0:12:17 Nate Hamil: And we have clients that stuff money in there for the sole purpose, a, of protecting their family and their generations ahead, but b, to also give themselves a place that, hey, if banking rates aren’t ideal, I can go here for.

0:12:29 John Tripolsky: Those that aren’t familiar with this kind of, in layman’s terms, and you did a great job of explaining how this works, but really, it might fit into a great opportunity for somebody that either, I don’t know, for whatever reason, completely dislikes mortgages or cannot get one for whatever terms, but they do have this policy, they plan for it, planning being the key term here. But then also too, I guess it would fall into it if I believe it’s like ten mortgages for rental properties or whatever you could have per person or whatever it is. So hey, you want eleven? Here’s a policy for you.

0:13:02 John Tripolsky: But yeah, stressing it as we do on pretty much every single podcast, every discussion we have, it’s not like I could wake up tomorrow and say, you know what, I think I’m going to set myself off with this whole life policy, and then it’ll be great. I’ll set it up tomorrow and in a week I can start drawn from this thing and go buy a property or whatever they want to use it for. Talk to us a little bit about maybe the process as much as we can on just trying to coach somebody along that path of figuring out what policy is right for them, what the approach is, and then maybe telling them some of the things they should, can’t or shouldn’t or can do within whatever the decision they make. So basically, if we approach that question of somebody is very interested in this, they really don’t know where they fall. Heck, they don’t even really know what situation they have today versus next year.

0:13:59 John Tripolsky: Walk us through that a little bit. So almost like what your first conversation would be with somebody when they initially.

0:14:05 Nate Hamil: Reach out to you. Maybe this is where I’m a little unique. I always tell people I’m a terrible salesperson. I’m a great listener. I’m the son of a CPA and a former Indiana elementary school teacher of the year. So I have my dad’s numbers brain, my mom’s teacher’s heart. So my first initial conversations with anybody are kind of a get to know you. We can collect the numbers via email, we can collect the numbers via my app that I use to collect client data.

0:14:33 Nate Hamil: But what I can’t collect are the hopes, goals, and dreams. Because the reality is, if you tell me, hey, your goal is x, y, and z, and you’re wanting to talk about life insurance, let’s figure out a what death benefit we need first. Let’s make sure that, John, if you come to me and say, hey, congrats on the new job, you make 5 million a year and you go, Nate, I just need $100,000 death benefit. We’re going to have a conversation around, hey, John, is that the right amount for you and your spouse and your family?

0:15:05 Nate Hamil: On the flip side, if you make 50,000 a year, you come to me and say, hey, Nate, I need $10 million of death benefit, we’re probably going to trim that back. So, a, we’re going to figure out the right amount, b, we’re going to talk about what those goals, dreams, the business hopes are, what the capital situation, the cash flow situation looks like, what your emotions around money are, what your goal for the next generation, the generation that follows.

0:15:29 Nate Hamil: And then if it makes sense, we’ll start to educate around the whole life process, where it fits, how it fits, and making sure that you understand and can articulate what that policy will do for you. Now in five years and ten years and in retirement.

0:15:46 John Tripolsky: You did mention the what if we’re world of business. Right. Business goals. So these policies say someone’s a business owner. So they, in a sense, are kind of one and the same as some wives and husbands and spouses might say, well, heck, it seems like they’re a business owner first and then a spouse second. They’re so greater in bed with what they got going on. So, about policy. I mean, businesses, obviously, sometimes it’s an employee benefit, a company benefit, et cetera, by having policies in place. What might that look like?

0:16:20 John Tripolsky: As far as for somebody who, again, maybe know whatever, it’s their business, they want to offer something else, maybe walk us through that a little bit. So I know we’re getting off track a little bit for switching more from the business personal to the business side, but how does that look?

0:16:35 Nate Hamil: But those two are never truly John.

0:16:38 John Tripolsky: Oh, that’s very true.

0:16:39 Nate Hamil: Yeah.

0:16:40 John Tripolsky: Very true.

0:16:40 Nate Hamil: So congrats again. John, you and I are business partners, and we own a business.

0:16:45 John Tripolsky: Stuck with me, whether you like it or not. There you go. You just put yourself. You’re stuck. It’s like, chris, we always try to escape each other, but darn it, we keep showing up here on the show once a week. It’s ridiculous.

0:16:55 Nate Hamil: Seriously. So we own a business. It’s worth a million dollars. My wife, Melissa. Your spouse, side note, is your spouse’s name on the podcast at.

0:17:09 John Tripolsky: Oh, yeah, we know. Staci, don’t listen to this darn thing. So I always talk smack about her. Okay. Just kidding. I appreciate you asking, though. Yeah, because you are a man of morals and disclaimers. Hey, we’ll say that in a good way.

0:17:22 Nate Hamil: I just want to look out for, uh, and I would assume that Melissa doesn’t listen to it, but. So we’re business owners. You and I are the only two in the business. It’s worth a million dollars. Our goal is to grow this as big as possible. The next day, Nate kicks dead. Congrats, John. You have a new business partner. Her name is Melissa. Granted, she has a phd in child psychology, master’s in education.

0:17:47 Nate Hamil: Terrible on the business side. You don’t want her to be your business partner, yet she still, by law, unless our agreement was different, owns my estate or my part of the business. Now, what we do with a lot of businesses is we put in place what’s called a buy sell. So, John, you and I would write, more than likely, as a young business starting out half a million dollars of term insurance, where I write a policy on John but I’m the beneficiary with a legal contract that says in the event that you pass away and that death benefit comes to me, I use it to buy out Stacy.

0:18:27 Nate Hamil: So let’s go back to our scenario. Nate passes away, boom, half a million dollars comes to John in the form of a tax free insurance check. And he goes, woohoo. But that contract says, john, you got to buy Melissa out instantly. So boom, she’s out. You own 100% of the business. So what a lot of people don’t realize is that if that is not in place, if Melissa wants out of that business, she can force the know. If my skill set in the business is what keeps the business driving, suddenly the business comes to a halt.

0:19:02 Nate Hamil: You want her out so you can free up capital to hire, to train, to do what you need to do. And usually those are term.

0:19:10 John Tripolsky: In all honesty, I always wondered how those worked. And I mean, a little nugget from my own life. Having a marketing agency was always interesting. We always found ourselves in very interesting client situations every once in a while. And I’m recalling one. I can’t remember if they were near office in South Carolina, but I don’t remember if it was a spouse or if it was a sibling or what the deal was. But yeah, somebody took it over.

0:19:43 John Tripolsky: We never found out even about, I think it was somebody passing away at the time or whatever it was until invoices weren’t getting paid. And we’re like, well, what’s the deal here? And then we just watched the whole thing unfold with people trying to figure out who’s doing what, who’s calling the shots. If I remember correctly too, was 50 50 ownership. So even though they did not get along, I don’t know all the details of it. It was an absolute nightmare.

0:20:06 John Tripolsky: And I remember our office just, I mean, at that point, we kind of severed ties, but we’re just like publicly watching this thing unravel. So that’s actually really interesting that you went into that scenario. Is that something difficult to set up or does it not going into pricing, but does it sometimes price out people from looking at a policy like that? Or is that something that you have a bop policy to cover your arse, things go wrong.

0:20:33 John Tripolsky: This should basically, from what it sounds like, be considered just as important as that when the time comes to look at your coverages, correct?

0:20:41 Nate Hamil: Yeah. To me, this is an annually reviewed policy. And what I mean by that is, congrats, John. We have our million dollar business. The next year it’s worth two, but we never update the insurance, and suddenly I pass away. Now you’ve got half a million to buy out, a million. And she wants it in the next five years.

0:21:00 John Tripolsky: Fun fact, unrelated to this. If you have homeowners insurance, and you do a very large addition, have your policy up 100%. I don’t know that from personal experience, but again, I’ve witnessed things from the sideline.

0:21:13 Nate Hamil: It’s actually really easy to set up. Here’s what a lot of people don’t realize. Life insurance premium and cash value growth is based on age and health. The younger you are, the healthy you are, the less expensive it is. That’s the reality. So when I talk to people and they go, well, I’ll wait x amount of years, okay, I can show you what that will look like. I can show you roughly how much it’ll be at that time, assuming your health doesn’t change.

0:21:40 Nate Hamil: On the business side, it’s just as simple. And honestly, a lot of people are scared about the insurance process. Let me walk you through it, because it’s really not that scary. We get a bunch of information. Name, date, social, all that good stuff. We attach the policy that we’ve walked through that, we say, hey, this is what we want to apply for. And then we send a traveling nurse out to our clients, and they take blood and urine. Don’t worry. They don’t mix them together, but they go to make sure, not that you’re healthy. They’re not checking you for disease. They’re checking for the general things that would preclude you from insurability.

0:22:17 Nate Hamil: So essentially, they’re just looking, are you healthy enough to get a policy? And then they come back with their answer. And insurance companies give us one of three answers. Yes, hey, the way you applied looks good. Let’s do it. No, hey, we have no interest in this person or otherwise. Hey, you applied for Johnny T at Superman health status, but he’s just average Joe. So instead of x amount, it’s $3 more, $10, $100, whatever the policy says.

0:22:47 Nate Hamil: So we have those conversations, and then once we reach the point, we’re like, yes, we’re good with the health reading. We’re good at the amount. Boom, off we go. And we white glove that from beginning to end. So if somebody comes in and meets with us and they want to move forward with that, we are handling it every step of the way.

0:23:05 John Tripolsky: Nate, I think you would support this, that every situation is very different. So there’s no cookie cutter, there’s no copy and paste. Everything is done specific for them. So before we do wrap up, though, let’s take a quick minute, if we can, or a couple of minutes, whatever we need. And if somebody had questions, right. And this is a great time, too. If there’s a best way for somebody to contact you, let’s drop that in there as well.

0:23:32 John Tripolsky: But if anybody has questions, right, I’m going to make the assumption, right, that even by inquiring with somebody such as yourself or whomever they choose with these questions, it’s not like you’re not going to get yourself in trouble by looking at other options. I’m going to make the assumption. It’s. And then I can definitely vouch for y’all’s approach with this is, you guys are terrible salesmen, you and Chris, from what I see on his know, on the CPA, awful salesman, it’s almost like you say, hey, you know what? I’m a great attorney, but, man, I am an awful account or I am an awful marketing guy. I’m glad you guys admit that and you don’t take offense to it. But back to where I was going with that before you took myself off the rails, what’s your best suggestions to somebody, even if they have even the smallest of question, or, oh, my gosh, I have no coverage, I need more information on where I fall.

0:24:27 John Tripolsky: I’m looking at this in the future, but I’m not ready. Now, what’s your approach to that? Walk us through. I know we talked about it a little bit, but I definitely want this to get across there because that time of year, again, you can get it again at the end of the year, but people get totally enamored with these pesky marketing people like myself, where it comes down to like, oh, you need this fear of loss, this, give us your $0.02, give us your honest two cent, which I know you will give us.

0:24:58 Nate Hamil: Yeah. Meaningful, intentional conversations. My belief is you cannot adequately sit down, meet with someone, learn about them, build design and show them a policy unless you already had something in mind in one meeting. So my belief is I go in there with a completely blank slate. I am going to gather the info, I’m going to explain what that info leads me to and then come back, usually about a week later with the proposed options, and I shop out against multiple carriers. I don’t go to just one. I’m looking for, depending on the policy, the best benefits, the best price, all sorts of things, John.

0:25:43 Nate Hamil: But my honest two cent is have a meaningful conversation with somebody who is not attached to a singular firm, but is in the industry, you call them non captive, can sell multiple carriers. So for me personally, nhammel@integratedig.com or they can easily jump over to my calendar and just schedule a time. It’s calendly.com nhamilhammel Iig.

0:26:18 John Tripolsky: And we’re all about efficiency. So I will literally copy those links and put them in the show notes. So if somebody says they can’t get a hold of you, they probably shouldn’t be driving a car because they can’t take directions. Yeah, we make it easy. So, yeah, we’ll drop those in. And Nate, let’s go back to the very, very beginning of this. When we asked that question of when do I need insurance? Literally the show title of this, and I know exactly what you’re going to say here, but what is your answer to when do I need insurance?

0:26:48 Nate Hamil: The minute you feel you hold some sort of emotional and financial responsibility towards someone.

0:26:53 John Tripolsky: Bingo. So basically, about a minute and 13 seconds into the show, you should have answered that question. Yes. If not, you probably didn’t even make it this far. So there’s your answer. Awesome, Nate. Well, thank you so much, man, for hopping on this with us. Honestly, I learned something here, too, like I always do.

0:27:10 Nate Hamil: Hey, I love it. One last thing. I’ll leave you with John. Somebody once told me, and I love it, that a life insurance policy is the best last love letter you can ever leave someone you care about. And I recognize it’s not as sentimental, but there is something about saying, hey, I love you enough to take care of you when I’m not here. So my wife and four kids, they know that if I’m not here, I’m at least here in spirit.

0:27:37 John Tripolsky: Absolutely. And you can’t do that unless you plan for that ahead of time. So we had our planning. We had all the topics that we wanted to here, right? So the one thing that I’ll mention in here, and I would be completely remiss if I did, not being that we are a tax related podcast, is there a tax benefits to many options here? We won’t go into them. A lot of details. If you have questions, Nate’s your guy.

0:28:00 John Tripolsky: But thanks, man. Thanks for joining us. We’ll have you back on here sooner than later, and we’ll maybe get into the weeds a little bit on some of these. But thanks for joining us.

0:28:08 Nate Hamil: We’ll get into the weeds on whatever you want, John.

0:28:10 John Tripolsky: Sounds great, Nate. I appreciate it. And thank you, everybody again for joining us here on the teaching tax Flow podcast on this episode where we talked about when do I need? Or when do you need? Or when you should have had insurance? So let’s keep it going. Let’s do it again next time. Different topic, different guest, same time, same place. Back here on the Teaching Taxlo podcast. Thank you everybody for hanging out with us today on episode 70.

0:28:41 John Tripolsky: Hopefully we answered that question for you. When do I need life insurance? So hopefully we answered it for you multiple times. But if we haven’t, you have more questions. The link is in, or I should say links are in the show notes for you to follow up with. Nate personally, great guy, great resource for any of those questions you may have on life insurance. Specifically, we are going to dive into some further, deeper topics as it relates to other types of insurance here at a later date.

0:29:11 John Tripolsky: But as the goal of this episode, focus mainly on one topic, get you a little bit more comfortable with it, or if you’ve never heard of it before or had a chance to dive into it, hopefully you have a much better understanding. So hopefully we’ve accomplished that today. And again, any questions, reach out to Nate personally via those links that are in the show notes and we will see everybody very soon back here on the podcast.

0:29:42 Disclaimer: The content provided is for educational purposes only. We encourage you to seek personalized investment advice from your financial professional. For all tax and legal advice, please consult your CPA or attorney. Investment advisory services are offered through Cabin Advisors, a registered investment advisor. Securities are offered through cabin Securities, a registered broker dealer. The content of this podcast does not constitute an offer of securities. Offerings can only be made through an offering memorandum, and you should carefully examine the risk factors and other information containing the memorandum.