Ep. 93 | Selling or Renting Out Your Primary Property
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John Tripolsky:Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Teaching Tax Full podcast today, episode 93. This is a hot one. Hot off the press as we like to say. We are gonna talk about as it relates to your personal property.
John Tripolsky:Should you sell it or should you rent it? You've moved out, moved the family out, you've hit the road, moving into the new place, what do you do? We're gonna talk about it, but before we do that let's take a brief moment and thank our episode sponsor.
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John Tripolsky:Alright, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. As mentioned, today, I'm excited about this topic. I know I say that all the time, but I really am. This has happened to me a couple times where sometimes, you know, something might look like a good idea, maybe in your mind, not on paper, but there's a lot more to it in some cases.
John Tripolsky:So I'll kinda lay the groundwork for this, and then I will let my, brother from another mother with no hair and all the tax knowledge jump in. But picture this, if you will. So, I mean, close your eyes if you want to, stare at the wall, turn on some whatever music. You have moved out of your home. You and your family have been in this home for x number of years, certain period of time.
John Tripolsky:We'll talk about that in detail. And now for whatever reason, say you got a new career, job offer, new schools, better weather, you've moved out. You've got another property. You've moved into it. Again, personal property.
John Tripolsky:So your personal primary residence, and you're stuck. What do you do? Do you sell it? Maybe the market's good, maybe it's not, or do you rent your place out for some income? So, Chris Mercurio, welcome back to your show, man.
John Tripolsky:How are you doing?
Chris Picciurro:I am great, John. Great to be back. Episode 93. We've done a lot.
John Tripolsky:There's a lot of these.
Chris Picciurro:Guess what? I'm gonna put you on the spot. Oh, boy. Here we go. Do you know why the number well, we did this with 84, but do you know why 93 is a special number?
John Tripolsky:Because it's 7 shy of a 100?
Chris Picciurro:I don't know. That's the year I graduated from high school. 18/93
John Tripolsky:was when you graduated. Wow.
Chris Picciurro:Oh my goodness. Word in teeth. I got word that have the test of time.
John Tripolsky:Hey. You know what? Whatever you're using, I don't know what, you know, face lotion you got going on, but you look great, man. You look great for your age.
Chris Picciurro:John, at least I could play in the I could play in the 100 year old plus pickleball league. There'll probably be 4 of us, and I'll dominate. You gotta play a 100 year old people to actually win.
John Tripolsky:And you know what? I'll leave I'll leave the gerry geriatric tennis jokes out of it, but you you set the, you set that one up for me. But speaking of speaking of aging. Right? I mean, let's let's talk about this topic.
John Tripolsky:So this one I I know this is one that we really just kinda threw into the mix because we get these questions all the time. And and when we say that, especially on this one, it's not the marketing voice saying, oh, somebody asked this, but, really, it's us that wanna talk about it. People really do ask this a lot. And, again, people drive I wanna say people. Our community members, Chris, obviously, your your private CPA clients, they drive the content that we do here on the show.
John Tripolsky:And this one is no different. So a lot of people wanna know this. Right? And and it's not a unique scenario. So walk us through this.
John Tripolsky:Hopefully, I did a halfway decent job of laying kind
Chris Picciurro:of the the situation out as far as for somebody moving from their primary and then have this decision to make. So this is an impromptu topic, and many people don't realize that we plan out our topics for quite a few weeks in advance. We we book guests months in advance sometimes. This one just popped out of nowhere. It it is weekly in our private CPA practice or in our teaching tax flow community that we see the question pop up, hey.
Chris Picciurro:I'm moving. I own a property. It's been my primary residence, and I'm moving somewhere new. You don't even have to be buying in the new place. You might be renting as you alluded to in in the intro, and we both personally been through this for a variety of reasons.
Chris Picciurro:Should I sell I'd like to sell my house that I my prior home, but if you are in the financial position where you don't need the equity from that house to move to the next place, you might want to rent it out. There are several tax and financial considerations that we have to look at. Most tax professionals would probably cringe at the idea of renting it out. And quite frankly, my default answer is sell it for the tax benefits, get the cash in your pocket, and move on. But there are other considerations as well.
Chris Picciurro:So let's start let's first talk about the tax considerations of of rent versus sell. So the first thing, the big elephant in the room is then we have another epic shameless plug to episode number I don't know. Just listen to them all, all 90 plus of them and you will find it. We talked about how to make a half a $1,000,000 tax free, but there's something called the section 121 exclusion. And that allows, that allows people to exclude capital gains from the sale of a primary residence.
Chris Picciurro:If it if it was your prime rule of thumb, was your primary residence 2 of the last 5 years? And there are some other special rules, but the vast majority of of it is just has it been the primary your primary residence 2 of the last 5 years? For married filing joint couples, they can exclude up to a half a $1,000,000 of capital gains, and for others, $250,000 worth of capital gains. So you have that right, but the problem is is if you take your property, let's say it was my primary residence for 20 years and then I go rent it for 10 years, I've lost my maximum capital gains exclusion, my section 121 exclusion. So to get and then I sell it 10 years down the road, now I'm gonna pay tax on my capital gain instead of getting that money cash free.
Chris Picciurro:So section 121, goal diagnosis in the teaching tax flow system. If you rent the property, the time starts ticking on you taking advantage of the section 121 or capital gain tax exclusion. If you just sell it and you have the qualifying time in the property, then you will walk away with a significant amount of cash tax
John Tripolsky:free. And, Chris, it's you know, and and this one, I guess, I'll you know, I don't mind sharing my situation a little bit on this too. So sometimes, like, for example, I I bought a condo, got a really good deal on it in a not so great area in a in a city, and lived in it for a very short period of time, and then all of a sudden the market took off. Where in that case and and in full transparency, I didn't know anything about anything when I got out of college really and rented that out. And, yeah, the income was nice because it if I remember right, it it basically bankrolled my first employee that I hired for our marketing agency.
John Tripolsky:And then, like, I kinda like the landlord experience, but like you had mentioned too, you know, on this and other ones, I think everything is situationally dependent. I gotta I gotta remember who told us that that line because I absolutely love it. It's not
Chris Picciurro:Oh, I know. It was it was Adam Whitney. Adam Whitney, he was not on I was on his podcast. He's a CEO of a company that we work with. A great guy, a former, yep, military.
Chris Picciurro:Wasn't in real estate in a a a former Michigander. But yes. Anyway Well, now I could blame
John Tripolsky:now I know who to blame when I tell my wife when she asked me to do something. I'm like, ah, it's situationally dependent. I don't and and, you know, then she hits me with a spatula or something. But, in all seriousness, right, like, there's no playbook for this that's like, yes. Turn right, turn left, rent versus sell a little bit.
John Tripolsky:Right? Like, everybody's situation is a little bit different, but it's so important. And, again, why I'm so excited about this topic is it's so important to know what options you have before you're like, oh, crap. I need to make a decision right now. Like, it's better to be able to plan for it, kinda arm yourself.
John Tripolsky:Right? Absolutely.
Chris Picciurro:I mean, you've you know, we both have. I've had I had a primary residence I took the section 121 exclusion in. I had a primary residence that we ended up renting for many, many years and I lost my primary. It just was it was at a time in 2008, rather, 2,009, 2010 in Detroit that, quite frankly, we were upside down a solid 100, $150,000 of equity and I didn't wanna have a short sale on my credit report, I didn't want to walk away from the mortgage, so I rented it out and ended up renting it out long enough to turn the tables. So, yeah, we've been through this, but, you know, ultimately, to walk away from the capital gain tax exclusion or the section 121 exclusion, that's a significant thing to walk away from.
Chris Picciurro:So that's, you know, so we're just so on the tax side, you've gotta factor in the capital gain tax exclusion. Number 2, the rental income. Now here's the cool thing, as you know with rental properties, you pay tax on your net rental income, not your gross. So John, let's say you bought a property for $300,000 It's now worth $500,000 and you rent that property out for 4 $1,000 a month. Well, you don't pay tax on $4,000 a month.
Chris Picciurro:You get to deduct any type of mortgage interest, real estate taxes, and you would think the tenant would play the utilities, but you might have repairs and maintenance. And then you get a depreciation deduction, So you get to depreciate the property over 27 and a half years if it's a residential property. The land is not depreciable, but the building part is. But here's the catch. You have to take the depreciation deduction of the lower of cost or market, meaning even though that property's worth a half a 1000000, you only get to depreciate $300,000 minus the land.
Chris Picciurro:That being said, sounds like I'm talking about from both sides of my mouth because I'm saying how it's great, you know, great to sell the property versus, you know, rent it. But if you rent the property, my point is, if you rent the property, even though you might make a lot a decent amount of rental income, let's say you make $4,000 of rental income and your mortgage payment's 1500. You might net $25100 a month. You're probably paying tax on very little to none of that rental income due to the depreciation deduction. And there's no coincidence.
Chris Picciurro:That's another one of the teaching tax flow laws. Cash flow does not equal tax flow, meaning if you rent a property for $2,500 net, that doesn't mean you have to pay tax on that $2,500 if you pay tax on net amount after depreciation.
John Tripolsky:And, Chris, too, before we dive too much further, just a quick question on my end, and I apologize if we're gonna jump into this a little bit. But does it matter if it's converted to a short term or a long term from a primary?
Chris Picciurro:Right. No. Great question. Because we have a client that's converting their their property to a short term. It does not matter when it comes to the capital gain tax exclusion because it ultimately comes down to that 2 out of 5 year rule.
Chris Picciurro:Now the net rental income, if you are self managing a short term rental property, then the then it actually gets written off over 39 years instead of 27a half. That being said, you might meet the short term rental loophole, shameless plug on one of the episodes in the seventies probably, maybe eighties, short term rental loophole explained, and you might wanna run a cost segregation study on the property. So ultimately, either way, here's what the takeaway if you're listening to this. You're probably not gonna pay tax on your rental income because you're gonna have a bunch of deductions. So another goal of diagnosis, do you wanna walk away with cash tax free or do you wanna convert the property into a rental and potentially have an income tax?
Chris Picciurro:So that's the fork in the road. Yes. Exactly. Now another tax consideration is depreciation recapture. And what that means, though, is as I just mentioned, you get to depreciate, meaning deduct the cost of the property minus land over time.
Chris Picciurro:But if you subsequently sell the property, then you have to add that depreciation reduction back into your income. So, John, let's go back to our example. Bought the property for $300, it's worth 500, you rent it for 15 years and you basically deduct 150,000 of the 300,000. Your cost basis is a 150. And let's say the property went up to 600,000, you'd sell it.
Chris Picciurro:You have to pay capital gains tax on the difference between 300,600, which is the sale price, and you would have to pay tax on the $150,000 of the depreciation deduction you took. So if you think you're gonna sell the property in the next 3 to 10 years, converting it to a rental probably doesn't make sense. Now how do you avoid the depreciation recapture? Do a 1031 exchange. Now that's another episode.
Chris Picciurro:So and I'm not trying to steer you to other episodes, everyone, but what I'm trying to say is there's typically an option if you make a decision or you intend to make a decision on a property, but talk to your tax professional. Don't do something and then come come to them later and say, hey. I sold my property. I wanna do a 10 30 1 exchange. That's not how it works.
Chris Picciurro:My point is once you convert it to a rental property, yes, the rental income is probably tax free, but it you definitely start losing, some of your, opportunities to avoid paying tax on the on the capital gain.
John Tripolsky:You know, this week, you know, down in Orlando, Taxposium, so the National Association of Tax Professionals. You know, we're surrounded by fellow tax pros. Right? And and the the hot topics are always I'd I'd say the past couple years especially is really tax planning and strategy. And, obviously, that's your specialty.
John Tripolsky:So, you know, by by referencing all these other podcasts we have, I think if anybody takes anything from this, right, it's it's that there's just not a, what what do they call? Like, the, those switchboards. Right? Like, for phones. So anybody that's under the age of 40 probably doesn't really know what those I mean, we didn't have to live through them anyways, but our grandparents probably told them.
John Tripolsky:Where it's really just moving pieces around to get the outcome that you want. There's just not a, you know, bam. Here's here's one strategy. Here's the best outcome. It's layering them and really building them in together.
John Tripolsky:And like you mentioned, right, there's ways to avoid the depreciation recapture, which some people might not even be familiar with depreciation recapture, which that's an an old beep moment. If they're not familiar with that, right, they think you're kinda home free, and then all of a sudden, like, oh, crap. But as you mentioned, right, you layer and you stack strategies, and you can avoid it legally and ethically. Right?
Chris Picciurro:And exactly. I mean, you might have something called passive activity losses. I met with a prospective client today, that had over $1,000,000 of passive activity losses. So they're that will get utilized once they sell some rental properties. They have a nice portfolio of about 30 properties.
Chris Picciurro:So the thing is they're gonna have depreciation recapture when they sell one of the rentals, yet they have a $1,000,000 of other losses to offset it. John, you made a great point. It might be rare, but it did happen. But it's like his
John Tripolsky:It's on record. A good point has been made.
Chris Picciurro:No. You made a great point, and I think I should start emphasizing this more. Tax strategies don't live in a bubble. They are meant to be blended together. They are meant to be used together.
Chris Picciurro:And I think that one of the things we might work on in the podcast is maybe come up with do an episode on our top five tax strategies to blend because some of them work so well together. Like, selling the you know, so so like you said, there there might be one thing that you do, like, for instance, hey. You maybe have a big capital gain, but maybe you could harvest some capital losses somewhere else. So the point is blending some of these strategies together to get you the legally and ethically the legally and ethically the best result possible is what's most important. And this primary residence conversion or sale could play a role.
Chris Picciurro:So on the tax side, let's think about the section 121 exclusion, depreciation and depreciation recapture, and rental income. So and then that's on the tax side. Now we talk about the tax tail not wagging the dog. So there are financial considerations. I'm gonna get real personal here on on one of the financial considerations as far as cash flow.
Chris Picciurro:Right? Because we, in the current environment that we're in, interest rates are really high. And a lot of people have a mortgage. Like, in our property, our primary residence, our mortgage rate's 3%. We've been here in over 8 about 8 years, I think.
Chris Picciurro:And, or been in this property over 7 years, but have been in Franklin over 8 years. And the thing is the mountain day we can rent a property in our neighborhood is is excessively high. We're very lucky. And my wife and I were talking, and we we built an apartment above our garage. John, you were a tenant in several times, and we look forward to my kids call you one of the plus players.
Chris Picciurro:Right? Hey. You're one of the plus players that come visit. I think I was
John Tripolsky:one of the first ones to stay there. Right? It's it still smelled like paint.
Chris Picciurro:Yeah. It did. Well, we thought you'd come and fix things up for us, but it was it was already Yeah. And then I I do have a I have a home office and this studio that we're we're we're recording in now. You helped set it up, which is amazing.
Chris Picciurro:But the point is we built a 2 bedroom garage apartment, and and it attaches to the house, but it could be locked off. It's about 1300 square feet. And my wife and I were thinking, like, gosh. When the kids are older, we might actually move into this garage apartment. And let's say our mortgage payment was $25100 and rent out our house for, like, $75100 and net 5,000 a month and then live here.
Chris Picciurro:So I don't have because maybe I don't wanna sell my house. Maybe there's non tax. Maybe there's emotional connections. Maybe we wanna have the house when when our kids start having a family, God willing. You know, we've established so many deep relationships.
Chris Picciurro:We don't wanna leave our neighborhood, but living in the apartment would give us opportunity to travel more. I could see in in in create rental income. So in other words, that's the cash flow part. If you can rent if your property if you let's say your mortgage payment is $1500 and you've live in a market that it's gone up and you can rent your house out for $4 a month, that's a significant amount of cash flow. And if you sell your house, and let's say you walk away with a couple $100,000, that couple even though it's tax free, that can that couple $100,000 generate you $25100 a month in income?
Chris Picciurro:So the financial consideration is cash flow. Is there enough positive cash flow that that makes you, that sways you to switch decision one way or another, if that makes sense?
John Tripolsky:We we don't have to dive into this one in too much detail through a little bit of a curve ball. Hopefully, you're worried now. House hacking. So does that have anything to do with this at all or that's kind of its own its own core, if you will? Because it's not really a rental, but it is.
John Tripolsky:Right?
Chris Picciurro:No. I mean, house hacking would play a role. That doesn't that doesn't mean that you're that you lose all of your section 121 exclusion if you rent out a portion of your home and sell it, and it was your primary residence. You still could have some depreciation recapture. It really depends on, you know, are you renting out 1 bedroom?
Chris Picciurro:Are you renting out an ADU? Are you renting out a furnished space, finished basement? So, yeah, I mean, it's a good question. It just that that's a we that's a whole separate episode actually that we can dive into that, because it's a great strategy for people to create income, tax free or tax tax friendly income. Doesn't need to be a younger person, even a first time home buyer, especially in those higher, mark those those higher ticket markets.
Chris Picciurro:You know, when you're looking at New York City or or somewhere like that where they might have a finished basement or or garage apartment. Or the other option is we could rent out my the garage apartment at our house and and I move my office once the kids are older into the house, but, you know, that's just isn't about my personal life, this is about, but these are the things that you you work through, though. You know, I think these are the things that anyone has to think about. Don't let the tax tell completely wag the dog. So one day, I'll actually stump you.
Chris Picciurro:I'm gonna my goal is
John Tripolsky:to stump you in the next 3 months with one of my pop up questions. I've yet to actually do it because you always got the right darn answers for every time. Old.
Chris Picciurro:I've been doing this forever.
John Tripolsky:I know. You're a 118 years old. Right? Isn't that what it is?
Chris Picciurro:Good. Hey. Right. That's right. So I was do I was one of the guys in our mastermind group, a friend, Matt Kidd, and and I were moderate I got part of a big discussion with CPAs and I told him I said, I've been doing this for 22 years and I started when I was 10.
Chris Picciurro:I'm the I'm the Doogie Howser of tax professionals. No one bought me. No one bought that one. So let's think about market conditions, though, too, because this is kind of the elephant in the room saying maybe you hold on to the property, but there's risk. Right?
Chris Picciurro:Because no matter what, you wanna sell your property at the highest price possible. And if you're in a property, even if you convert it to a rental and you feel there's a lot more room for the prices to grow, even if you trigger $200,000 of taxable income because the price or the cost of the property went up or the fair market value of the property went up. Even if you take a quarter of that and pay taxes, you're still up 75% of that. So you have to look at market conditions. Are you at the top of the market?
Chris Picciurro:Is it time to sell just because of that? Or are you willing to keep the property and if it's an up and coming area or a growing area and you you might wanna hold on to the property even if the rental income's not amazing, because you, you know, you might know like, John, you live in a in a downtown, quaint, very charming and nice downtown area in a smaller city in Michigan. Let's and let's say you know 6 blocks away from you, they're gonna build pickleball courts. And, oh, by the way, it'll be quiet. So they're gonna have some noise canceling things around it.
Chris Picciurro:So some people might look at that as a negative because they're gonna hear hear that that all the pinging. And those pickleball courts are gonna attract a significant amount of people or maybe they're you know, it could be anything getting built. Right? It could be any development close to your house that's gonna increase the value of your house. You even if you move out and if you could afford to, you might wanna keep the house.
Chris Picciurro:So market conditions, cash flow, those are the 2 financial considerations. And, you know, quite frankly, talking about we talked about long term investment as part of marketing conditions, but finally, emotional considerations. And I got alluded to that as well. Like we raised our children in my house, do I want to hold onto it? Do I want to, I have a lot of close connections to people in our community and if I, you know, if I wasn't in this community, it wouldn't be the same.
Chris Picciurro:I couldn't walk to the pool or drive the golf cart up to the front of the neighborhood and and I wouldn't walk our dog around the neighborhood. So that's a you know, those those are consider so those are things you have to think about that aren't related to tax. So you've got financial and emotional considerations and tax considerations.
John Tripolsky:Absolutely. Absolutely. And and, Chris, I know this is, you know, one of the topics that we just kind of threw into the mix based off of a lot of interest in it. And you're right. I I would love to do an episode where we discuss kind of our top strategy blending opportunities and then a house hack one too.
John Tripolsky:So there you go. Case in point, everybody that's listening to this. This is how we come up with topics. We just let them drive themselves and and take the feedback from people. And, you know, obviously, we we don't do this for our own good, although we do enjoy doing them.
John Tripolsky:We love talking about these topics, and things change. Right? So I know there's a couple of them, on the radar here probably within the next 30, 60 days. We're gonna look at kinda doing a version 2 point o of a topic that we touched much earlier on that there's been some changes. Right?
John Tripolsky:So we we keep people in tune with everything. Absolutely. I think the final I mean, I I
Chris Picciurro:did omit one thing that just popped in my head for considerations, managing the property. Is it something that you're gonna manage on your own? What happens when you have a tenant with an issue? Are you gonna hire a professional property management company? And then, obviously, that takes a little sliver out of your profits, although I'm I'm a bit typically a proponent of that.
Chris Picciurro:Can you manage it virtually? So those are sorry, John, to go back into my considerations, but I felt like, gosh, I forgot something and I and I actually did. So, but, yeah, I agree. I'm looking forward to diving in the other topics. Yeah.
Chris Picciurro:Absolutely.
John Tripolsky:And then that, obviously, though, if somebody does hire out to a a PMs, a property management company, that's an expense. Right? So it kinda and that you know, I think something that we've talked about too on a lot of our episodes as it relates to, real estate and rental properties. Right? It's treating it like a business in a sense unless it's totally passive.
John Tripolsky:Obviously, that that gets a little different there. But, you know, having all your ducks in a row, having everything planned out, because again, situationally dependent. Kinda I love that term. I I absolutely do. It's fantastic.
John Tripolsky:But then also, again, kinda harping on the on the point of kind of being armed, being knowledgeable of everything that's out there, and nothing nothing against tax pros. The a lot a lot of great ones. I've met a handful of them, Christina, over the past 2, 3 years, especially that not to say they don't know a lot, but sometimes people it's in a lot of professions. Right? You get very used to doing the same things over and over again, same clients, same situations, etcetera, where, you know, somebody might listen to this podcast and take questions share Share this podcast with them.
John Tripolsky:And it again, it might you know, not not to a fault of theirs or ignorance, we should say. There is just so much that are in that's in those IRS tax publications that is darn near impossible to know everything in there like Chris does. So
Chris Picciurro:Oh, I don't know everything about it, sir, but thanks, buddy.
John Tripolsky:Hey. You know what? You you store knowledge very good. So, again, I've never stumped you on one of my questions, which that's my goal. So, Chris, one more question for you on this one here, and then then I'll let you go and then we can wrap.
John Tripolsky:Right? So when would be a really bad idea or bad timing to convert a primary residence to a rental. I know we talked about a lot of the right things, but when would it when would somebody really be making just the biggest mistake doing it, taking out the ability to manage it, etcetera? But what might that awful situation look like?
Chris Picciurro:I would say, you know, it's what you have a situation where you have a ton of equity in it that you could really use and deploy it into other opportunities, when you have a significant capital gain, let's say, 4, $500,000 that you could walk away with tax free and or if your property's in a market that could easily decline in value And your rental income and your rental income is less than 1% of the of the value. So in other words, there's that 1% rule. That's hard to get, but, I mean, if you have a $1,000,000 property and you can rent it for $5,000 a month, that might sound super attractive. Let's say you only owe $2 a month, but you can but, hang on. I've got a, you know, 200,000.
Chris Picciurro:You're gonna get 5,000 a month. If you sold it in at $800,000 of cash, I'm hoping that And again, if you gross $5,000 in rent, your expenses are probably a couple of grand. So let's say you're netting $3,000 a month, but your property's worth $1,000,000 I think you could sell it, take $800,000 and make more than $3,000 a month in some type of investment without the headaches of having the
John Tripolsky:house. Perfect example. There you go. You have it, everybody. Knowledge bombs have been dropped.
John Tripolsky:And on that note again, definitely be on the lookout for some great topics. Not even just related to this, but just in general. I mean, you're looking at our schedule. We have some awesome, awesome stuff on the roster, even going out almost 90 days. And we're coming up to episode at 100, which we're gonna start doing something cool come episode 100.
Disclaimer:We're gonna tweak things a little bit. We're gonna make it a little bit more interesting. But as always, as I like to close these out with, we'll see everybody back here next week, roughly about the same time, but a different topic here on the Teaching Tax Law podcast. Investment advisory services are offered through Cabin Advisors, a registered investment adviser. Securities are offered through Cabin Securities, a registered broker dealer.
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